WHO in the walt disney world is rolly crump?
Roland “Rolly” Crump is a Disney legend; his works includes creating concepts for the crème de la crème of creepy in the Disney parks, the Haunted Mansion attraction among many other wonders. Rolly passed away on March 12, 2023 in Carlsbad, CA.
He was a generous man and this interview was the culmination of a two year process of inquiry beginning in 2013 and culminating in Rolly taking part in our documentary film (Foolish Mortals) as an interview subject.
At the time this article was written, Crump was retired, giving interviews from his California home and sharing how in that magical window of time in the 1960’s he merged the worlds of the avant-garde and the family friendly at the Disneyland Park.
Crump says “ (The time around the creation of the Haunted Mansion) was a really exciting timeframe for me, because I learned from Disney how to draw and how to use my imagination, but then I took it to the next level for myself personally. So a lot of the subjects I did, didn’t really fall into the realm of Mickey Mouse.”
Despite his work often comfortably sitting outside the realm of Mickey, Walt Disney himself saw something in Crump’s art. He wasn’t alone. Millions of people, young and old, have gone through the turnstiles at the Haunted Mansion and the other attractions that Crump design.
Crump’s story is one of telling stories.
When he was a young man standing with Walt Disney aboard the Mark Twain riverboat, a lazy attraction at Disneyland that cruises “The Rivers of America” while a friendly down home narrator describes scenes reenacted from the American past, Walt shared a secret of storytelling with him. Crump remembers Walt saying, “Look down Rolly, you know if you really kind of close your eyes, you could be on the Rivers of America back in the 1700s or 1600s.”
He says in summary of Walt’s philosophy on the relationship of storytelling and attraction building that “When you’re doing an attraction or a ride, you’ve got to make the public feel like they’re really there.” To Crump this meant as he puts it, to “take the time and have a story in it.”
The work he participated in during that time period has endured for decades. Attractions such as the Enchanted Tiki Room, Small World and the aforementioned Haunted Mansion are iconic in the themed attraction business and in the hearts of countless Disney visitors. For many in the industry and fan communities, they are the standard by which the values of other attractions are measured.
Crump is very humble about this and gives much credit to his peers. Yale Gracey was another Imagineer, that’s Disney speak for designer/engineer, who worked closely with him during the formative stages of The Haunted Mansion. He concedes that “Without Yale Gracey the Haunted Mansion wouldn’t be what it is today. It was his illusions and concepts that made the mansion what it is.” His respect for the creative energies and processes of the people with whom he collaborated is without question. Crump goes on to say, “He (Gracey) had an incredible mind, it was just beautiful to watch him work. He came up with it so quickly, it wasn’t something he’d spent a lot of time working on, all the sudden it would just pop out of him.”
Crump explains how he dug deep when working on the stranger aspects of Disney attractions by saying, “Whatever the subject is, you take it as far as you can. Whether it’s a cartoon subject, or a spooky subject or whatever. You fall into that category and take it as far as you can, but stay within the parameters of what it is you’re trying to tell.”This ability to stay in the parameters enabled Crump to fill a unique position, because he is one of a select few Imagineers who were able to tackle the subject of the afterlife at Disney parks.
“Growing up with Disney, everything I did told a story.” he intimates, “It’s not just a picture, there’s something behind the picture…that created that picture.”
The story behind the image he speaks of is ever present in the finer details of an attraction like the Haunted Mansion, as is a whimsical sense of humor. Laughing, grinning, singing ghosts haunt the halls of the Mansion. There are 999 to be exact, but there’s always room for one more, says the narrator of the ride. This lyrical humor in conjunction with other worldly visual concepts and illusions takes visitors of the Mansion to safe, but foreign territory.
“Growing up as being a cartoonist, I always incorporated humor in everything I did.” Crump explains. For many, this humor likely minimizes the dread that themes of death and murder usually carry as baggage in storytelling, making the story friendly to a very wide audience.
No matter how “weird” the subject matter is, Crump says “I think people have to really climb inside themselves, and I think you have to have a sense of humor to be an artist or be creative, there has to be some humor that goes along with it.” Crump used his sense of humor to inject levity into even his most abstract work.
He cites numerous areas of influence including the films of Italian auteur Federico Fellini, who is known for his avant-garde approach to narrative filmmaking. Crump says he was struck by Fellini’s interpretation of story. “ Whenever I saw his films, I was blown away by everything he had in the film. The people that he used, the design, it was almost surrealistic, I was attracted by that.”
This sense of imagination and surrealism is pervasive in Crump’s work at Disneyland during his tenure as a lead designer. Fellini is quoted as saying that “Realism is a bad word. In a sense everything is realistic. I see no line between the imaginary and the real.”
When prompted for a response to Fellini’s world view and asked if he sees a line, Crump responds” No, it’s a continuation.”
In many ways, you could say that Crump’s work was a continuation of the vision that Walt Disney had for his parks. The offbeat artist was a protégé of Walt’s, which ruffled feathers amongst veteran Imagineers. He was young and favored by Walt in his last days.
There was political strife after Walt’s passing. Some theorize that Crump and the Haunted Mansion attraction were at the center of the drama in Imagineering. Many of the original Haunted Mansion concepts, including a Museum of the Weird based solely on Crump’s artwork were scrapped in the power struggles that ensued Walt’s passing. The concept art featuring chairs that appeared to be living, gypsy caravan medicine carts and a mesmerizing woman, scantily clad with a bat resting on her head were too much for some of his fellow designers to get behind, though Walt had loved the art.
If there was ever a “left field” for Disney to play in, this was it. Walt was in favor of Crump’s original concepts and told him after being shown his ideas for the Museum of the Weird that he was “up all night thinking about them and couldn’t sleep!” But alas, to the chagrin of boys and ghouls everywhere, The Museum of the Weird never saw the light of day in a Disney park, though Crump does offer, “I’ve heard there’s been a couple of artists that work for WED that want to incorporate the museum of the weird into it, but my personal opinion is that it doesn’t fit now, because it had to be part of the program the way you design it to begin with. It’s not something that you just add. It something that should have been integrated into the overall design.”
As newer themes and attractions are developed, Crump can’t help but feel an underlying sense of homogeny developing in what was once considered the most magical place on Earth.
With Walt gone, many have said the magic went along with him. Crump agrees, “Yes, I definitely feel the magic was gone. The power that Walt carried was something that no one would know unless you worked with him. I know that just knowing that we were going to have a meeting with Walt, and sitting waiting at the table for Walt, it was absolutely incredible.”
Walt Disney passed away on December 15th 1966. The Haunted Mansion celebrated a 45th anniversary in 2014 and the Disneyland resort and theme park celebrates a Diamond 60th Anniversary in May of 2015.
While he still believes that “Disneyland has that magic with the employees that work behind the counters, they still carry on the way Walt wanted it” Crump shares that these days he rarely visits the parks and that “…where it really fell apart was in the imagination of design. I think without Walt the imagination of design just became nothing but trace. Trace something that was done before. I think that’s kind of sad, nothing was ever taken to the next level after Walt passed away.”
Baham, J. (n.d.). The unauthorized story of Walt Disney's Haunted Mansion
Crump, R., & Heimbuch, J. (n.d.). It's kind of a cute story.
For posterity what follows is the approximate transcript of my conversation with rolly on April 8, 2015
One time I read that you were inspired by Fellini…
Yes I was, because of his imagination. Incredible imagination. Whenever I saw his films. I was blown away by everything he had in the film. The people that he used, the design, it was almost surrealistic, I was attracted by that.
Fellini said"Realism is a bad word. In a sense everything is realistic. I see no line between the imaginary and the real."
Do you see a line between the imaginary and the real?
Yes, I definitely do see a line there. Your imagination is the secret to what’s really going to take place. That’s the thing I think’s so important, is the imagination and how you can take imagination and bring it to life so it’s realistic. That’s a good analogy.
So there really isn’t a line?
No, it’s a continuation.
How have you successfully integrated the avant-garde ideas that you put out with such family friendly structures like the Disney parks?
How did I cross over? The interesting thing is that there were two sides to this coin. One side was being able to design and work in the Disney formula and make it look like Disney did. At the same time, my imagination would kind of take me off in different directions. It was a really exciting timeframe for me, because I learned from Disney how to draw and how to use my imagination, but then I took it to the next level for myself personally. So a lot of the subjects I did, didn’t really fall into the realm of Mickey Mouse.
What is it about the fantastic or “the weird” that you think makes us feel alive?
I can’t answer that. (Laughing) I think what it is, is the imagination. I think people see imagination in my work that they don’t see in other people’s work. Growing up with Disney, everything I did told a story. All my artwork has a story behind it, and I think people can read that in my artwork. It’s not just a picture, there’s something behind the picture…that created that picture. Growing up as being a cartoonist, I always incorporated humor in everything I did. Even as weird as it was, I think there was a little piece of humor in there. I was born with that. I think people have to really climb inside themselves, and I think you have to have a sense of humor to be an artist or be creative, there has to be some humor that goes along with it.
You said that there’s a place in your creative process where you’re “conversing with the painting.”
It’s interesting because I’ve talked to a lot of my friends that are artists about that and they all agree, that when you’re doing a piece of sculpture or a piece of art or whatever it is, you take it to a point and then the piece itself takes over and tells you what to do. One example was I sculpted in the Tiki Room, I sculpted the drummers up above and everything, beating the drums during the show. Once the show was running, I went in and I watched it and it was almost like the drummers were saying “Rolly there’s no life to us, we’re just up here beating the drums” and I remember using the sparklets on the back of the truck, you know the things that shimmer and shine. I put the pieces in their eyes and when they beat the drum, their eyes were sparkling and they came to life. But that was after the fact. They talked to me after I completed and said “Hey, give us some life.” So, I think it’s important that you listen to your artwork when you’re working with it. There are times that they’ll tell you, “No you’ve got too much yellow in here Rolly, and you’ve got to add a little green.” I don’t know where that comes from, it’s something inside your head that talks to you.
Do you have any creative rituals that you use when you’re creating your artwork?
I think probably, I do little thumbnails. In other words, before I start a piece, I do a little thumbnail and I work with that little thumbnail in my head. I learned that when I was in animation that when you’re in other words, when you’re going to do a scene the animators would do little thumbnails or little rough sketches before. I think the ritual is the little thumbnail or sketches you do before you start, that gives you a chance to review it. When you’re doing the little thumbnail you’re thinking about what is this going to do and what’s the end result here. That’s one of my rituals.
The other is to do my homework on whatever picture or painting I’m going to do, I really want to know the subject and not only that but everything I do has a little story behind it. I know that when I did a lot of paintings on the day of the dead, I really had to research the day of the dead. The same thing with Josephine Baker. I got excited about Josephine Baker and I had to read about her. I think research and getting excited about what the subject tis, before you started.
You see all of the day of the dead drawings, paintings and sculpture. When I got a hold of it, I put humor in it, because I found out about it, I reward up on it. It’s a day of celebration, it’s where you’re celebrating the people of the past. I incorporated Celebration, like one of the paintings I did was a skull riding a carousel horse and getting the golden ring. That’s all part of putting it into a happier atmosphere.
You’re able to take these themes that some people find uncomfortable like death and give them a whimsical spin and I think it’s fantastic. My next question is about right now. As a culture right now do you feel that we require more shocking imagery to get a response out of a viewer, than we have in the past.
That’s a good question, it gets back to staging. My personal artwork, was built, I grew out of the architectural digest magazines, because I look at those magazines and every now and then I’d see a painting on the wall and I’d think ooh that’s really neat, that’s strong, it’s bold and it’s easy to read. It influenced me to do things that are larger, bolder and brighter. It was kind of a strange thing, I always felt like I wanted to be on architectural digest in one of those beautiful homes, so if I was going to be there what would I do? Some of the Oriental artwork I did, the Japanese artwork, really falls into that category. I have a very beautiful 4x4 painting in my bedroom at home of a gorgeous Japanese woman in a gorgeous robe. I could see that could’ve fit beautifully into architectural digest, because it could have been at the end of a hallway and it would really read. So, I was always impressed with things that you see from a distance that were strong and powerful and that kind of influenced the direction that I was taking later on.
Has there ever been any talk about developing the Museum of the Weird, now?
Not really, I’ve heard there’s been a couple of artist that work for WED that want to incorporate the museum of the weird into it, but my personal opinion is that it doesn’t fit now, because it had to be part of the program the way you design it to begin with. It’s not something that you just add. It something that should have been integrated into the overall design that.
Were there any ideas that you had when working with Yale that were too weird to be considered for the Haunted Mansion?
No, not at all. The interesting thing about Yale is everything he came up with was so simple and gorgeous and when it was built it was actually incredible. I think he was a genius, an absolute genius. Without Yale Gracey the Haunted Mansion wouldn’t be what it is today. It was his illusions and his concepts that made the mansion what it is. I just absolutely loved him. He was like a little tinker toy man and he was deaf in one ear, I would talk to him and I didn’t know he was deaf and he’d never talk back to me. I’d think what’s going on with this guy, and later on I found he was deaf. He had an incredible mind, it was just beautiful to watch him work. He came up with it so quickly, it wasn’t something he’d spent a lot of time working on, all the sudden it would just pop out of him.
After Walt passed, there were many changes in the structure of the Disney Company. I read a quote once where a WED engineer said to an incoming employee “You missed it, Walt’s gone.” Do you think that there was a time period with Walt, and that after Walt passed the magic was gone?
Yes, I definitely feel the magic was gone. The power that Walt carried was something that no one would know unless you worked with him. I know that just knowing that we were going to have a meeting with Walt, and sitting waiting at the table for Walt, it was absolutely incredible. It was a huge piece of power that was going to walk in that door, the power walks into the door and he turns out to be the nicest guy going and a sweetheart.
He’d always say good morning and he was always friendly with you. He would break that power and just become another person, which was absolutely marvelous. He was always interested in what you were. He never talked down to anyone, never, he always talked to everyone at their level and what your interests were. So it was interesting to see the power come through the door and just be a regular guy.
How did the park change after that?
I think it changed very slowly. He left what they call a snowball going downhill, he left such an incredible amount of work for all of us and also the philosophy. The philosophies that he instilled in the design of Disneyland and the operations always has continued. I love the fact that Disneyland still has that magic with the employees that work behind the counters they still carry on the way Walt wanted it and I just admired that to no end, I think that’s great. I think where it really feel apart was in the imagination of design I think without Walt the imagination of design just became nothing but trace. Trace something that was done before. I think that’s kind of sad, nothing was ever taken to the next level after Walt passed away.
The new attractions lack the magic?
Yeah, it lacks the magic. It really lacks the magic. A lot of rides and attractions have been done since then, but they don’t have any little sparkle to them, which is kind of sad. That Indiana Jones ride for example, they spent over 100 million dollars on that and it’s just a rough ride. Here’s an interesting story. I was with Walt on the Mark Twain (riverboat) one day and Walt said “Look down Rolly, you know if you really kind of close your eyes, you could be on the Rivers of America back in the 1700s or 1600s” he said “You’ve got to do that, when you’re doing an attraction or a ride, you’ve got to make the public feel like they’re really there.” Which meant, take the time and have a story in it. I think a good example of it is the Pirates of the Caribbean, you’re in there for 18 minutes, you’re not in there for 4 minutes, and you’re in there for 18. So, you get absorbed into the entire show. It’s turned out to be as the years go on, it’s become my favorite personal ride, the Pirates of the Caribbean.
If you had a piece of advice to give to future Imagineers, or folks working in the family storytelling universe. What advice would you give?
Follow this old guy’s footsteps of what he had to do and how I learned. I’ve mentioned this numerous times, is to be a good sponge, and to evaluate what it is you’re going to design, give it some thought and make a story out of it. Do a lot of homework. The other thing that Walt taught me that he did, he always saw the product finished. A good example is when we did it’s a small world, and he said “We’re going to do a little boat ride.” And we thought “He’s crazy!” but he’d already envisioned a boat ride for children around the world, so he knew what it was going to look like when we got finished. I think the reason he knew that was that he reached into his own pocket and he pulled Mary Blair out. Knowing full well that if they’re going to do a boat ride about children around the world, no one would be any better than Mary Blair to do the styling on this. He was the best casting director that ever lived. I think that’s what you need in the way of a leader, is someone that sees the end product, when it’s first on a little sketch or a drawing. I do know that for a fact, once I start something and I kind a just get a rough little idea of it, I see it finished. I learned that from when I sculpted the Tikis. I did a little sketch of what the Tiki was going to look like and then all of a sudden I had to sculpt it. When I was sculpting it, I knew what it was going to look like at the end, because the little sketch was in my head.
I think that one of the secrets is know the end product that you’re going to design. The other thing was working for WED, they taught us how to do it physically. I was physically involved with every aspect of that, from the standpoint of doing the sketch, to sculpting it to have it made out of fiberglass and brought back, paint it and install it. That’s what’s really sad, that’s missing in what people should be doing these days, when they’re in that area. They should be able to follow their product all the way through from the beginning to the end. Rather than just taking it so far, then an engineer takes it and then an architect takes it and so it falls apart in time.
How often do you visit Disneyland?
Not very much, after a thousand years being there. Marie and I don’t go there, we’ve gone there a few years back for Christmas or whatever. The sad thing is it’s so packed with people that it loses the magic. You can hardly get around and there’s strollers everywhere, and you begin to trip over the public and that really ruins the experience, which I think is really kind of sad. Because, you don’t appreciate the awnings and you don’t appreciate the chairs and the landscaping and everything, because there’s just too damn many people there, which is really sad.
After the questions, Rolly shared this with me.
Whatever the subject is, you take it as far as you can. Whether it’s a cartoon subject, or a spooky subject or whatever. You fall into that category and take it as far as you can, but stay within the parameters of what is you’re trying to tell. ##########